Advances in Live Sound Reinforcement
Dolby Podcast Episode 19, July 19, 2007
Jack and Craig find out about Dolby’s role in concert sound and other live sound venues from Ervin Grinberg, Marketing Manager for the Dolby Lake Processor, a muy sexy live sound processor that optimizes the listening experience for audiences around the world. Plus, listener Chris, gets some advice on how to choose an LCD and plasma HDTV.
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Mentioned in this Episode
[intro music]
Jack Buser: Hello! And welcome to Dolbycast, the insider's guide to entertainment technology from the experts at Dolby Laboratories. I'm Jack Buser.
Craig Eggers: And I'm Craig Eggers.
Jack: And we're here to give you the straight talk on everything you need to please your ears.
[musical interlude]
Craig: To please your ears!
Jack: Do the guitar! Do the guitar!
Craig: [mimics guitar riffs]
Jack: [mimics guitar riffs]
[laughter]
Craig: Where's that from?
Jack: Wayne 's World. Wayne's World.
Craig: Oh, man. I can't get anything past you, can I?
Jack: " Wayne 's World! Party time!" I love that movie.
Craig: " Wayne 's World! Podcast!" [laughs]
Jack: [laughs] They actually did several movies. And for our listeners who haven't thoroughly enjoyed all of the Wayne's World theatrical releases, [laughs] I highly recommend just about everything those two have done. But, moving on from that topic... [laughs]
Craig: Moving on.
Jack:.. . since Wayne's World is a fine example of home theater.
Craig: Last week, folks, we endorsed shooting your projection screen up against a white blanket.
Jack: Yes.
Craig: This week, we're endorsing Wayne's World.
Jack: [laughs]
Craig: This podcast is getting out of control, Jack.
Jack: This is what happens when you do a podcast with me. This is what happens. But, listen. We do have an exciting topic today.
Craig: Very exciting.
Jack: And an exciting guest. But, before we get to that, we have a viewer question, I would assume.
Craig: Shall I read it?
Jack: Yes, please.
Craig: OK, Jack. Here comes a viewer question. Chris, from Iowa City, wants to know, "What is the best LCD and plasma HDTV on the market for a decent price, around 42 inches? Is there a name brand to stick with over the rest? Should I wait for the fall to come before next-generation technology becomes available?"
Jack: Well, listen. I've got to tell you, Chris, this is a loaded question - a multi-part question, if you will.
Craig: Yes.
Jack: But listen. I've got to say, if you're waiting for any next-generation technology, I would be wrong to ever say, "There's never going to be a next-generation technology." Technology always marches on. But, that said, it is a great time to invest in a high-definition TV right now. Prices have never been better. You can never buy more display for your buck than you can right now. Will there be next-generation stuff? Of course, there's going to be next-generation stuff. But, that doesn't mean you shouldn't jump in now. These TVs look fabulous.
Craig: And I would recommend, if he's really serious about being future-proof, think about 1080p.
Jack: Yeah. Well, listen. You don't got to go 1080p. 720p is going to be great for a lot of folks out there, and a great 720p TV does look great. But, if you're really concerned about next-generation...
Craig: Well, if you want the full resolution from Blu-ray and HD DVD, you're going to want 1080p.
Jack: If you want the full resolution, you're going to want 1080p, especially if you play games or you're into HD DVD or Blu-ray. All that stuff's 1080p today. There's plenty of content out in 1080p.
Craig: That's right. That's right.
Jack: If you're buying a larger screen size, that's where 1080p really becomes important. Or if you're going to be sitting very close to the TV, 1080p becomes very important.
Craig: Exactly. Exactly.
Jack: The other thing to look for, of course, is contrast. Make sure you buy a TV that's got nice, rich, deep blacks and has images that really seem to pop out of the screen. You asked, "What's the best TV for a decent price?" Well, I don't know what a decent price is, but obviously, you want to really look at... a TV's an investment, right?
Craig: Exactly. I'm glad you said that.
Jack: A TV's going to last many, many, many, many, many years. And if you just go in and you buy the cheapest thing you can find, I don't know, maybe, it's going to be a great TV, maybe, not. But, you should really look at the TV as an investment. Just make sure it's a great TV. That's more important.
Craig: Yeah. Amortize that investment over the years.
Jack: Exactly right. The investment's going to be amortized over a number of years. So, if you have to pay a few hundred extra bucks to get a TV that's really going to satisfy you when you get it home, you know what? My recommendation - again, I'm a sucker for this kind of stuff - is get yourself a nice TV.
Craig: Yeah, but your credit cards are already overloaded, right?
Jack: [laughs] It is true. It is true. Much to my chagrin, I'm always willing to pay...
Craig: Ladies and gentlemen, he came to my cube today asking for MY credit cards.
Jack: [laughs] This is not true. OK. I'll take you up on it, though.
[laughter]
Jack: Well, listen. Thank you very much, Chris, for writing us your question. If you have any other questions, anything at all out there, please send us an email at dolbycast@dolby.com. We'll be more than happy to try to answer it.
Craig: What's that address again, Jack?
Jack: Dolbycast@dolby.com.
Craig: OK.
Jack: And when we come right back, we're going to get to our very special guest...
Craig: Very special guest.
Jack:.. . And talk about live sound and concert sound. Be right back.
[musical interlude]
Braden Russell: Hi, I'm Braden Russell.
Ara Derderian: And I'm Ara Derderian. And together, we're the HT Guys.
Braden: You're listening to the Dolbycast. And if you've got a question about audio, where do you send it?
Ara: To dolbycast@dolby.com.
[musical interlude]
Craig: And back at Dolbycast. Hi, Jack.
Jack: How you doing, Craig?
Craig: I'm not supposed to talk loud, so I'm not talking loud.
Jack: [laughs] You can talk aloud.
Craig: Our producer said, "Don't talk loud when you come back in."
Jack: Oh, talk loud. Talk loud. You know I talk loud.
Craig: You sure? I know you do. That's a given.
Jack: [laughs] You're allowed to talk loud.
Craig: So, let's talk about our guest.
Jack: And especially our guest and our topic, you should talk loud.
Craig: Our special guest. You know, Jack, so oftentimes in our podcast we talk about the whole Dolby chain of entertainment.
Jack: Yeah.
Craig: How Dolby's involved from movie production all the way to watching the movie in a home theater and getting that fantastic video as well as audio experience.
Jack: That's right.
Craig: But, there's a whole other side. And this really plays to where I come from, because, as you know, some of my favorite videos are music videos and concert videos.
Jack: Yes.
Craig: And that comes from being an old rocker, right?
Jack: [laughs]
Craig: But, we have a very, very special guest today. You want to introduce him?
Jack: Yes, I will. We have Ervin Grinberg here, from our, I guess, Live Sound department. Dolby's got a Live Sound department.
Ervin Grinberg: Live Sound.
Jack: Well, tell us about that.
Ervin: Well, the Live Sound department or group here at Dolby is relatively new. We were actually another company before that, a company called Lake Technology. And we came into Dolby around 2005, incorporated into the Professional Group at Dolby.
Craig: Hey, Jack, I'm jealous of this guy.
Jack: I know.
Craig: Do you hear that voice?
Jack: That just sounds too cool.
Craig: He's got the true DJ thing going on.
Jack: [laughs] He's got the DJ voice. You can tell he's in Live Sound. You know what I mean? So, what's the deal? I guess, my first question would be, 'OK, so, concert sound. What's going on in concert sound? I mean, I've seen lots of concerts over the years. What's changed? What's the latest thing in concert sound? What's gone on over the last 10 years, 20 years?'
Ervin: Well, historically, concert sound actually started, let's say, when the Beatles first did their first show.. .
Craig: Do you know where that was, Jack?
Jack: Beatles' first show. Let me think. Let me think.
Craig: In the US.
Jack: I should know this.
Ervin: Uline Arena in Alexandria, Virginia.
Craig: There you go.
Jack: I was about to say that.
Craig: You were going to say New York.
Jack: If he would have given me a minute, I would have said exactly that.
Craig: You were going to say New York.
Jack: I was going to say exactly what he said.
Craig: Yeah.
Ervin: So, the PA was basically coming out of their Fender amps. I mean, there was really no big sound reinforcement. There was Elvis Presley, and we'll talk about that later. But, sound reinforcements were very large stacks of speakers on either side of the stage.
Jack: Now, that's what I remember.
Ervin: I think, a lot of people do. And they were very loud, and they really weren't very directional. And they were loud.
Jack: They were loud.
Craig: But, that was what we all aspired to, because we started out with Shure Vocal Masters.
Jack: [laughs]
Craig: You know, 100 watts of power, 2 large tower speakers.
Jack: Yeah. Oh yeah.
Ervin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Craig: And then, having the big JBL and Altec Lansing dumps in the horns. We all aspired to that in the day.
Jack: Well, I just remember seeing those heavy metal concerts, growing up. You see Van Halen just rocking through piles of speakers. Whatever happened? You don't see that anymore.
Ervin: No. What you see now are what are called line arrays. And the technology has really changed over, let's say, the past 5 or 6 years, where they've taken the large, heavy speakers that were on the stage. The speakers now are much smaller.
Jack: They hang from the ceiling.
Ervin: They're much smaller. The technology of actually pushing the air out and making the sound has been refined to the point where they can take a line array of speakers, fly them from the ceiling, and actually direct the sound to where they want to direct the sound to in the audience. So, it's not just being blasted out to the first 3 or 4 rows.
Jack: Right.
Ervin: They can actually direct the sound to the seats in the back, to the seats on the side, and it's done. You don't have to bring as many speakers, you don't have to take them, and it's much lighter.
Craig: And the goal is everybody that attends the concert, obviously, gets a great experience.
Ervin: Everyone.
Jack: So, here's my question. You said “line array”. I think, I know exactly what those are. But, just for the listeners out there that, maybe, haven't gone to a concert in a while or are a little bit confused about what we're talking about, line arrays - correct me if I'm wrong - are sort of smallish looking speakers that kind of hang in... It's kind of weird to describe. They're kind of hanging almost sideways, then upside down.
Craig: At an angle, yeah.
Jack: There's like six of them all strapped together, hanging from the ceiling or something.
Ervin: 6, 12, 15.
Jack: And there's 2 of them, one on either side of the stage or something.
Ervin: Left and right.
Jack: And then, that's generally it these days?
Ervin: That's it. That's it.
Jack: That's unbelievable. All that sound's coming out of those 2 line arrays.
Ervin: Depending on the size of the hall, yeah.
Jack: Wow.
Ervin: There are some subs that are being used.
Craig: I was going to ask that.
Jack: What's the deal with subs? Because that's our favorite speaker.
Craig: That's Jack's favorite topic.
Jack: [laughs]
Ervin: Well, for a lot of us, the subs are really important, because that's where your bottom end comes in.
Jack: Yeah...
Craig: Exactly.
Ervin: And you need bottom end when you're doing rock and roll.
Jack: Absolutely.
Ervin: There's no way of getting around it.
Jack: Absolutely.
Ervin: So, there are subs that aren't hung, but there will be subs, maybe, that are on the side of the stage. But, those are also small speakers that push out a lot of sound.
Jack: Now, I've always heard the phrase, "There's no replacement for displacement when it comes to a subwoofer." Is that true in this day and age? Do you need these gigantic subs? Have they also figured out a way to shrink the size?
Ervin: Yes, yes.
Jack: And what's that due to? How are they able to get away with that?
Ervin: Well, a lot of it is done in the processing.
Craig: And processing is what Dolby's all about. And quite frankly, it talks to some of our involvement, and how we make live concert sound sound better.
Ervin: That's right.
Craig: You work for a company called Dolby. But, we had a close relationship with another company in Australia called Lake.
Ervin: Lake Technology.
Craig: Lake Technology, for our listeners, is responsible for some of the cool technologies, like Dolby Virtual Speaker, Dolby Headphone.. .
Ervin: Yeah.
Craig: And I've been reading a lot of Billboard and other magazines talking about concerts and concert productions. And there's this thing called the Dolby Lake Processor. And that's probably where you're involved, right?
Ervin: That's exactly where I'm involved.
Craig: Tell us about the Dolby Lake Processor.
Jack: Before you do, I've just got to tell you an anecdote, because I've got a friend over in London who does sound reinforcement for clubs. And he called me up on the phone - even before I even knew we were in this space, I guess - and had seen that processor at some show over there, going, "Oh my gosh! That things the coolest thing in the world!" That thing is really cool-looking.
Ervin: It really is.
Jack: I mean, that thing is really cool-looking.
Craig: Apparently, it sounds as good as it looks.
Jack: [laughs] Yeah.
Ervin: It sounds very good.
Jack: I'm sure it does. But, just look at the thing. It's just like the coolest thing in the world.
Craig: So, tell us about the Dolby Lake Processor.
Jack: Yeah. What is it? What does it do?
Ervin: Well, to let you know what it does, maybe you have to understand where it sits in the line. And I'll go real fast.
You have a stage. You have instruments. You have performers on the stage. They have microphones. And all that goes into a mixing board in the front, which is called the “Front of House Position”, FOH. From there, it goes into an amplifier and then back out to the house. But, before it goes to the amplifier, we're in-line there, and all that raw sound...
Jack: So, "in-line" means from the board, to the Lake Processor.. .
Ervin: To the processing, to the amplifier, back into the house.
Jack: Oh, cool.
Craig: And the house is the speakers.
Ervin: Well, the house is where you're sitting. The venue is called the house.
Craig: OK. OK.
Jack: OK. OK. OK.
Ervin: These are terms that I use very loosely all the time.
Jack: I love it. [laughs]
Craig: Good stuff.
Jack: I feel like now I'm in the biz. So, go ahead, tell me more.
Craig: [laughs]
Jack: [laughs]
Ervin: And that's what the Dolby Lake Processor does. It processes, basically, the raw sound before it hits the amplifiers. For many years, this processing was done with a multitude of competitors, who have very good products. But, it was done kind of like underneath the board with flashlights, and they had to dial stuff in, and if there was a problem, then somebody had to run up on the stage. It was done in a way that was kind of archaic, at times. The sound was still pretty good.
Jack: Let's call it non-ergonomic, shall we?
Ervin: OK. We can call it that, too.
Jack: [laughs] If you're crawling underneath the board... What happens if you have a problem?
Ervin: Well, that was sometimes what was going on. And we kind of changed the way that people do processing in many ways. First of all, the way that we, as we call, tune a house is, before, you would be front of house. People would make some noise. They would make some adjustments. They would drop a filter in. "What's that sound like? Let's do this. Let's do that." We changed that.
Jack: That's before the concert starts.
Ervin: That's before the concert starts. Usually, the house is tuned before it starts. We've taken that to another level. We use off-the-shelf... We have our end users use off-the-shelf tablet computers that communicate with the Dolby Lake Processors through kind of a high-end access point. And from any seat in the house now, you can tune the Dolby Lake Processors and you can tune the house. This has never really been done before.
Jack: That's the coolest thing. I've seen that, too. Tablet computer...
Ervin: Tablet computer.
Jack: For people that don't know what a tablet computer is, you've probably seen one. It looks like almost a laptop, but it's one big screen, and it's a touch screen.
Ervin: Right. You have a digitized pen, most of the time, that you have to use on the display itself.
Jack: And you're drawing on this thing.
Ervin: That's exactly what you're doing. But, with our software, the software is written in DirectX, so basically it's a gaming engine.
Jack: Are you kidding?
Ervin: And the graphics on this are so spectacular, in real time.
Jack: [laughs] That is so cool.
Ervin: So you're able to tune the house in real time on space-age gaming graphics. And that's great.
Craig: So this tablet computer is actually... You're a sound engineer. You're sitting in the audience, you're tuning a system, and the tablet computer's speaking to the Lake Processor via wireless?
Ervin: Processors.
Jack: Processors.
Craig: Processors.
Jack: Because you usually have a bunch of them, right?
Ervin: It doesn't matter, because they're all networked.
Jack: Oh, my gosh. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you literally are like drawing in EQ curves and drawing in notches if you need them...
Ervin: We're dropping in filters.
Jack: OK.
Ervin: And the filters, you drop in a filter. You pull it. You cut. You boost. You move it over. All in real time, with graphics that are basically a gaming engine.
Jack: That is the coolest thing. So, when do I get this for my home theater? That's what I want.
Ervin: We can talk about that later.
Jack: Have you ever had anybody do that? Have you ever heard of that? Somebody actually put that in their own...
Ervin: There are about 4 or 5 home theaters in the US - some down on the Peninsula, some outside of Washington, DC - that have these in there for their home theaters.
Jack: Oh, my gosh. [laughs] I can only imagine.
Craig: Your credit card has hit its limit.
Jack: My credit card's about to... [laughs]
Ervin: Very high-end.
Jack: I found out about this thing because of my buddy. And I have got to tell you, I've never seen the guy freak out about a piece of kit like he freaked out about this thing. And if you look at the front of the thing - I've just got to describe the front of this thing. It's a standard 19-inch rack mount. Professional piece of equipment, rack and ears and everything.
Ervin: Yeah. 2U mount.
Jack: 2U mount. But, the user interface on the front are these light-up, circular...
Ervin: Portals.
Jack: Portals.
Ervin: Portals.
Jack: You've got to see this thing. It is the coolest-looking. And it lights up. And there's circular displays on the front.
Craig: Ervin, does it have blue lights?
Ervin: It has red lights and blue lights.
Craig: Oh, man.
Jack: It has so many lights. The thing is amazing. It is the coolest-looking thing. Go ahead.
Craig: When we come back, because we're going to take a break.
Jack: Yeah, we do have to take a break.
Craig: When we come back, we're going to find out what exactly the Dolby Lake Processor does to create the incredible concert sound that we get.
Jack: And I also want to hear what concerts are using it, when we come right back.
[musical interlude]
Announcer: Got questions for Jack or Craig? Email dolbycast@dolby.com.
Craig: Welcome back to Dolbycast, podcast listeners and concert-going people.
Jack: [laughs]
Craig: Concerts are sounding better than ever before, and one of the reasons is the Dolby Lake Processor.
Jack: Now, why is it that the Dolby Lake Processor makes these concerts sound better?
Ervin: Well, you can have a box that has lots of bells and whistles, and it can really dazzle whoever's using the box, the engineer. But, the most important thing is the sound. And we have the best sound available in our box, and that's because of our D-to-A, digital-to-audio, and audio-to-digital converters. That's what takes this box, and it stands apart from most any product out there.
Jack: So, in terms of those converters, what makes them special? Do you just get this incredibly high fidelity response from the unit that way?
Ervin: They're well-developed converters by a gentleman named Bruce Jackson. And Bruce Jackson is, let's say, our guiding light in Live Sound, for lack of any other word.
Jack: [laughs]
Craig: [laughs]
Ervin: Bruce Jackson was the front of house man for Elvis Presley at the time of his death.
Jack: Wow.
Craig: Wow.
Ervin: And Bruce is a young guy. Right now, he's out on tour with Barbra Streisand, and Barbra will not do anything without Bruce.
Craig: You said he was with The Boss, too.
Ervin: And he spent 10 years with, yes, Mr. Springsteen.
Craig: Mr. Springsteen.
Jack: [laughs]
Craig: "The Boss!" "The Boss!"
Ervin: I just stopped for a second, and I think, about it. Yes, "The Boss."
Jack: "The Boss."
Craig: "The Boss."
Ervin: And he also had a company called Apogee.
Jack: Oh, I know Apogee.
Ervin: Apogee D-to-A and A-to-D converters.
Jack: No kidding! They make great converters.
Ervin: Well, that was Bruce. And Bruce took that. Does it make sense now?
Jack: Oh. Oh, I get it. I love Apogee stuff.
Ervin: OK. So, with Bruce, with the converters, with the really great look of the front portals, using a tablet computer, wirelessly, we have something that people want to listen to.
Jack: Alright. Give it to me. Give it to me. I want to hear it. Where do I go to hear this thing? Who are some artists that are touring right now I can check out? Give it to me. Come on. Name drop. Give me some.
Ervin: Well, I would say that...
Jack: Daft Punk. Say, "Daft Punk."
Ervin: Daft Punk...
Jack: Yes!
Ervin:. . .might not be using it. [laughs]
Jack: No!
Craig: Oh!
Jack: Daft Punk, if you're listening to this, use the Lake box. [laughs]
Elvin: There are about 25 to 30 regional and large sound reinforcement companies around the country that use this on their tours. At any given time, there's, oh, I would say, probably, close to 25, 30, 40 tours, touring now, that this is going on...
Jack: Wow.
Ervin:. . .small tours, large stadium tours...
Jack: Wow.
Ervin:. . .In Europe, we did the Robbie Williams tour that, every day, it played to 150,000 people.
Jack: Oh, great.
Ervin: It's being used all over the world.
Jack: Well, I'm going to have a word with my boys, Daft Punk, and we're going to see if we can sort this out. [laughs]
Ervin: I think, you should. I think, you should.
Jack: Listen. Thank you so much for coming on. I know I have learned a ton.
Craig: This guy takes me back to the good old days.
Jack: I know. I can see it.
Craig: Well, the bad old days.
Jack: Listeners, if you could see the sparkle in his eye right now.
Craig: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The bad old days, when you used to have to carry all kinds of equipment around to get a big sound.
Jack: [laughs]
Craig: And now, today, with the Lake Processor.. .
Ervin: Not anymore.
Craig: Yeah, truly.
Jack: I've got to tell you, this stuff is too cool. Listeners, if you've got any questions about any of this - live sound, concerts, what have you - send it in to dolbycast@dolby.com.
Craig: Jack, do you think we should invite this guy back?
Jack: I think, we definitely need to. I think, we definitely need to.
Ervin: I know where to find you all.
Craig: [laughs]
Jack: [laughs]
Ervin: So I can be here.
Craig: Excellent. Cool.
Jack: Thanks so much for coming in.
Ervin: You're welcome.
Jack: Alright.
Craig: Send those cards, letters, and everything else to...
Jack: [laughs]
Jack and Craig: [together] dolbycast@dolby.com.
Jack: Craig, thanks again. We'll see you next time.
Craig: See you.
[music]
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