Video Calibration with Joe Kane
Dolby Podcast Episode 45 - August 14, 2008
Find out why Joe Kane created his classic home theater calibration discs – Digital Video Essentials – and learn about the broadcast TV chain in the first of 2 podcast interview with industry expert, Joe Kane. Find out why your digital broadcast signal may be truer to the director's vision than cable or satellite TV in this episode of Dolbycast.
Don't miss Part II of this interview with Joe Kane, creator of the home theater calibration disc, Digital Video Essentials.
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Mentioned in this Episode
Craig Eggers: Streaming to you from our headquarters in San Francisco, this is Dolbycast, the insiders guide to entertainment technologies, from the experts at Dolby Laboratories. We're here to give you the straight talk and news on everything you need to know about technologies that excite your eyes and ears.
Hello and welcome to our pre‑CEDIA edition of Dolbycast. We'll talk about CEDIA in just a second, but hey, we really appreciate you listening. I have to tell you we've got some very exciting guests, and some very exciting content planned. So, stay tuned to Dolbycast.
So CEDIA, what is CEDIA? Well, CEDIA is an acronym that stands for Custom Electronics Design Installation Association. This is basically a trade industry association. They're focused on state‑of‑the‑art audio, video, whole house distribution, automation, everything related to customizing your house and giving the very best audio and video experience. They put on a really exciting trade show every year. This year it's in Denver, it's in September. Besides doing the trade show and showing all these new, exciting products, CEDIA also offers training of a CEDIA member. So, when you go into a retail store, when you're thinking about buying a next‑generation Blu‑ray player or audio system or display device, look for that CEDIA logo. CEDIA members are trained. They have installation skills. They know how to pull wire. They know how to build displays into cabinets and walls. They calibrate the equipment. They do it all on existing as well as new home construction ‑ a really good resource in the industry.
CEDIA is going to be a very exciting show for Dolby. We have lots of product announcements to talk about this year at CEDIA, and the news is we've actually renovated our entire theater at CEDIA. So, if you're going to the CEDIA show, if you're an industry professional and you'll be there, we've got a new reference level 7‑channel speaker system, a 9- foot wide Stewart screen, and a Samsung projector designed by Mr. Joe Kane, and actually calibrated by Joe Kane.
Speaking of Joe Kane, our special guest today is Joe Kane, and he will be joining us right after this brief interlude.
Announcer: If you have questions for the experts at Dolby Laboratories, email us at dolbycast@dolby.com. That's D‑O‑L‑B‑Y‑C‑A‑S‑T@dolby.com. For more information, and links pertaining to today's topic be sure to log on to dolby.com/dolbycast.
Craig: Welcome back to Dolbycast. Our guest today is a long‑time friend and a confidant. He's an industry consultant that teaches and advises broadcasters, as well as hardware manufacturers, how to get the very best pictures across the medium and into your television set. He's a founder of Imaging Science Foundation, and he's the author of "Calibration Discs for the Home Theater Environment." He is the Joe Kane of Joe Kane Productions. Joe, welcome to Dolbycast.
Joe Kane: Thank you. It's great to be here.
Craig: So, Joe, first question: how does a native of Rochester, New York end up in Hollywood, and become the authority in video imaging?
Joe: I got my start in the television industry at Eastman Kodak in Rochester, New York. A lot of that had to do with timing. The electronic news gathering was just happening in 1973 when I first went to work for Eastman Kodak. Eastman Kodak was concerned about how to make film look good on television, because it was one of many times when somebody said, "film is dead, long live film, what do we have to do to keep it going?" so I joined a chemistry company to bring electronics to the film domain.
Craig: Interesting. So, now you're in Hollywood, you work with hardware companies, as well as the broadcasters. Tell us about Joe Kane Productions. I know a lot of people associate Joe Kane with delivering incredible pictures ‑ at the CEDIA show, at CES, but you're about much more than delivering a picture at a trade show. You really do a lot of consulting work. You're in the communication business. Tell us about what you do, Joe.
Joe: Well, first of all, Joe Kane Productions came out of my experience at Eastman Kodak in Rochester, New York. That I, in a research environment, ended up learning more about video, than I think a large number of people in the industry know. So, I felt that it was important that there be an understanding of what video was all about, which is of course what Eastman Kodak instilled in me, in the process of trying to make film look good on television.
So, I met a lot of people through Eastman Kodak that were interested in learning more, and I decided to make a career of it. I decided that it was time to go to Hollywood, go to one of the most glamorous places in the world when it comes to program production, and get involved in what they were doing and bring some of the experience that I learned at Eastman Kodak, bring it into the community. That was the start of the company...
Craig: Yes.
Joe: ...and it only grew from there.
Craig: So, what do you do today?
Joe: There's a combination of things that we do today. We're still involved in program production.
Craig: Yes.
Joe: We also advise facilities on how to get the best possible picture, and some of the things that they need to do in the production process to get a great picture for the consumer.
Craig: Yes.
Joe: We work with display device manufacturers, helping them understand their responsibility to the communication system...
Craig: Yes.
Joe: ...in creating a great picture, giving the consumer an option to get the very best possible picture that is available from what we produce, and program content. Then I also work with installers and try, through my programs work directly with consumers, to help them understand their part in getting a great picture into their home.
Craig: So, Joe, you often talk about the communication medium. I guess it really is about communicating the art form directly from the production facility, the movie studio, all the way through that entire chain to the home. Can you talk about how do you look at this communication medium, and how does it impact what you do?
Joe: Well, one of the things that is important about television is that it is a communication system and that in doing a good job of communicating, there have to be rules. There has to be an understanding of who and what is being said in the transmission in order for that information to be properly received...
Craig: Yes.
Joe: ...by the consumer. In newspapers and magazines, when a newspaper publisher publishes something, you pretty much can guarantee that when you pick up the newspaper at home, you're going to see the exact same thing that they saw when it came off the press.
In television, there are a lot of variables in the communication system, especially on the consumer side, which makes it more difficult for them to get the message that's being delivered, or get it properly in its entirety, than there is in any other form of communication. Whether its newspapers, or magazines, or even radio. They seem to be more consistent about delivering their message than television, and I'm trying to change that. I'm trying to make television what it should be, and that's a communication system.
Craig: So here's a tough question then Joe, what's wrong with televisions today as we know them? You say you work with display manufacturers, and in communicating this art form, what's wrong with the TV?
Joe: The majority of what's wrong with television is the manufacturers of TV sets have lost sight of the responsibility of the TV to the communication system. They are so concerned about trying to compete with each other on the showroom floor, they do anything they need to do to that TV set to get your attention when you walk into the showroom floor, and see this wall of TVs ‑ they want you to notice their TV. Doing those kinds of things is totally counter to the requirements of the communication system.
It's just like, if the newspapers started putting headlines in red, and someone else started putting headlines in green, and someone else started putting headlines in blue to get your attention, it wouldn't be a newspaper anymore. It wouldn't look like a newspaper. We're faced with that in the television industry where, it's my belief, that a lot of people involved in creating television for consumers have lost track of what the system is supposed to be doing.
Craig: Is the system always delivering the right information though? I mean is this an issue that's exclusive to display manufacturers, TV manufacturers or can the system also have its variables, Joe?
Joe: Actually the beginning of the variables in the consumer industry was caused by the production industry. In the initial days, especially of color, they weren't as consistent as they ought to be, so TV set manufacturers initially started doing different things to the communication system as a patch, as a way of compensating for the fact that the post-production community wasn't doing what it should do.
Then, incidentally that was part of the reason I left Eastman Kodak, and wanted to go directly into the post-production community. Because I understood how good the communication system was, from having experienced it for 10 years at Eastman Kodak, to understand that some of the people creating the content had lost sight of what the communication system was all about.
They were so inconsistent in what they were producing that they were literally forcing manufacturers to do things to compensate. Of course, when manufacturers started doing things to compensate, it got out of hand on their side as well.
Craig: I know a lot of pundits used to refer to our NTSC system as "never twice the same color". I suppose you could assign that blame to the production side as well as the display side?
Joe: Well, you could actually, if you wanted to, you could go all the way back to the system specifications themselves. That in 1953, when our current standard definition color system was codified, we wrote things into that system that were idealistic things, that on paper could be described but in actuality couldn't be implemented. So, you could actually trace it all the way back to trying to be idealistic, and losing track of the system, losing track of the fact that a communication system only works when every element within that systems works, so if you specify something that can't be done, you're asking for a certain amount of trouble to begin with.
We could pin this all the way back all to the people who wrote and idealistic system into the code that couldn't be implemented.
Craig: Gotcha. So Joe, you know we talked about communicating the art form and up until recently, the art form has largely been film‑based. So, my question to you is, in what you do with display manufacturers, is the work that you do, and is the goal of a display device to reproduce the look of film in the home?
Joe Kane: No, and I say that as if there is one-word answer to that question.
Craig: Yes.
Joe: The look of television, the capability of television is completely different from film's capability.
Craig: OK.
Joe: Film has much more color capability than the television system, and it has different parameters, so that one of the things that we learned at Eastman Kodak when we were trained to make film look good on television, is we recognize they were two completely different mediums. What we had to do, is we had to separate the two, and we had to create an art of transforming film into the video domain.
Craig: OK.
Joe: That was actually part of the experience that I took away from Eastman Kodak, is that they were two completely different things. It's interesting when reviewers say, "Gee the DVD didn't look like what I saw in the theater".
Actually, if they look carefully there is no way it can look exactly like anything they saw in the theater. The video version of any motion picture film is just that: it's the video version of it, and quite often a huge amount of effort goes into transforming the story from one medium to another. It's not unusual to spend 80 or 90 hours transferring a 2-hour film to get it to move from one medium to another. There's nothing automatic about that. That's all a creative process.
Craig: That's really interesting. Joe we're going to take a quick break, and we will come back to Dolbycast in just a moment.
Announcer: If you have questions for the experts at Dolby Laboratories, email us at dolbycast@dolby.com. That's D‑O‑L‑B‑Y‑C‑A‑S‑T@dolby.com. For more information, and links pertaining to today's topic be sure to log on to dolby.com/dolbycast.
Craig: Welcome back to Dolbycast, our special guest Mr. Joe Kane, of Joe Kane Productions. Joe, I know a lot of people that are enthusiasts in the industry recognize the "Joe Kane" name from some of the contents you produce in the market place.
"Video Essentials" was your first commercial effort. That came out on laser disc, and then you and I have worked on the DVD version of that, and it has really changed, and evolved, and matured. I know that you've got discs out on the market place, and I want to talk about those, but can you tell me first of all, first and foremost ‑ why did you embark on this mission of creating these discs that, literally, can be sold in stores, can be sold to consumers. What was your purpose, what was your goal, what was your vision?
Joe: The primary explanation is it's all about the art. I'm enthusiastic about story telling. I like watching films. I like watching TV programs whether it's episodic, or whatever. I like art form, and what I wanted to accomplish was an ability for artists to communicate, to have a defined canvas on which they could create art, and know that whatever art that they created would be seen by the audience the way the artist intended it to be seen.
Craig: Yes.
Joe: That wasn't happening in the communications system, and it started in the production world, as I just described. Where, I went to the production world, and said "you have to be consistent about what you're doing, because if you're a moving target, there's no way the consumer is ever going to get the story. You've got to be a fixed target in the canvas on which you create the art".
Craig: So, if you're going to have a reference display device, you've got to have a reference source going into it.
Joe: That's right. When I started going to the post-production community, they said, "Well, gee. If you look at the chaos that's out in the consumer industry, what difference does it make if we are consistent in production? The consumers still aren't going to see what we're doing". That was their challenge to me, to go into the consumer world and fix the consumer world. Not that I wouldn't have gone there anyway, but it was interesting and supportive for what I wanted to do, to have the post‑production industry saying, "You've got to go after them. You've got to help the consumer understand their responsibility in this story telling process that is our communication system called video".
Craig: Well, I have to tell you "Video Essentials", and all the many versions of "Video Essentials" that have followed, have been a great reference too. I know the calibration issues you source. I know the reviewers ‑ if you look at the magazines, and the people who are reviewing product often refer to "Digital Video Essentials", "HD Video Basics" ‑ it's a great tool for the professional and the reviewer. There's also a lot of information that can be gleamed by the average consumer that wants to learn more about setting up their system, getting the most from their system, from this disc, isn't there?
Joe: Yes. As much as my background is in engineering, I've had to learn how to communicate. I've had to learn how to tell the story to consumers in a way that they can understand it, and deal with it, and be as enthusiastic about getting it right as I am. So, this whole thing of communicating with consumers has been an evolution in me as well in growing up. It's part of the reason that there's more than one version of the program that, as I see reaction out in the field to what I produce, I realize, "OK, maybe there's a different way of saying this so that they can better understand where they're responsibility lies to the storytelling".
Craig: So, I guess I'd be remiss if I didn't say that I'm looking at "Digital Video Essentials: HD Basics", which is out on Blu‑ray, it's right here in front of me. This is an audio, as well as a video disc, and to your point, you're trying to provide reference source level video content, so that people can calibrate their displays, but you also have reference source audio on that disc too, don't you?
Joe: Absolutely. Audio is at least an equal partner in the storytelling process, and I wanted people to understand what could be done dimensionally in audio. We talk about the coming of 3D video, and it's funny because we've been doing 3D sound. We've been doing dimensional sound for so long now, and I've tried to emphasize the value to the consumer of the audio. The audio is minimally an equal partner in this communication system.
Craig: And to our listeners: as I look at this disc, which is a reference disc, I see the Dolby TrueHD logo.
Joe: Absolutely. The test signals that are included in this, and actually the entire program is in Dolby TrueHD. The idea is that we want consumers to understand the best that can be presented. We at least want to source or provide the best that is capable of being done, and we believe that the lossless system of Dolby TrueHD allows for a minimum amount of compression, making it much more friendly to a disc delivery system, yet preserving everything that's in the source.
Craig: Fantastic. You know, Joe, I remember, back in the old days...
Joe: Was this yesterday?
Craig: Oh, please. Sounds like it was, feels like it sometimes. I remember you used to say that our NTSC television system was actually pretty good. There's lots of picture information inside that system, if you could only access it, get at it, if you will. Joe, I remember when we first met, you were creating some spectacular pictures from laser discs, which is analog video, NTSC.
But, now we're looking at a digital environment, and my question to you would be: how is digital video different than the analog systems that we used to work with in the past, and how does that impact what you do in the marketplace?
Joe: I'd like to start by saying, especially with the history of digital starting in audio, and then moving onto video, there have, at times, been perceptions that, "oh gee, analog is better". The reality, especially in video, is no way.
The digital is so much better than analog as far as a delivery medium, as far as a record medium, as far as a processing medium. Everything about digital is so much better than anything we can accomplish in analog.
So, I moved into digital. My first production on laserdisc, "A Video Standard", it was produced in 1988. It was done completely in the digital domain. I say that ‑ we actually had problems in 1988 keeping it in the digital domain, but the quality of what we were producing in standard definition, to most people's eyes, was high‑definition. Most people had never seen standard definition look that good before. It was component, instead of composite, in addition to the fact that it was digital, and the quality was staggering compared to what most people understood the system was capable of doing, and digital video made that possible.
Craig: But Joe, digital video is about compression, and isn't compression bad?
Joe: Certainly, in terms of how digital video is delivered to the consumer, it's all about compression.
Craig: Yes.
Joe: The irony of this ‑ first of all, to record a video signal in uncompressed digital space requires a great deal more space then it would to record the analog signal. But, in the digital world, we can effectively compress the signal with little, or no noticeable degradation, as far as the consumer is concerned. We can put much more compression on the digital signal, than we could in the analog.
As an example, interlace video; which I'm sure everybody's heard of. Interlace video is form of compression. It's 2‑to‑1 compression over a progressive image, that takes half the space to communicate an interlace signal than it does a progressive signal. But, that 2-to-1 compression, if I show you what to look for everybody can spot that 2-to-1 compression. If we go to digital, I can often do an effective job of 100‑to‑1 in compression, and nobody is going to be able to tell the difference between the source, and the 100‑to‑1 compression. We can do a lot more with the signal in the digital domain in compressing it. We can fit a high‑definition digital signal into the broadcast space of an analog...
Craig: Yes.
Joe Kane: ...standard definition signal. That is a huge amount of compression, especially considering that the digital files are much larger than the analog files to start with. That we can compress it that much, and get a nearly perfect picture in high‑definition, in the space we used to allocate to analog standard definition.
Craig: Very, very interesting. So, we have the same bandwidth for our analog systems, but through the magic or miracle, if you will, of video compression, we are able to deliver a source content that has much more detail to that display device, and literally increase the picture quality of the display device by a factor of what? 5‑to‑1? 6‑to‑1? What would you say, Joe?
Joe: Yeah, whatever numbers you want to use, the amount of detail that can be included in what used to be the analog transmission space...
Craig: Yes.
Joe: ...using the compressed digital, the amount of information we can fit in that space, is huge compared to the standard definition analog.
Craig: Staggering. So, again Joe, we're going to take a really quick break, and when we come back, I want to talk about how do we get digital video into the home? So stand by, we will be right back.
Announcer: You are listening to Dolbycast, with Craig Eggers.
Craig: And we are back at Dolbycast with our very special guest, Mr. Joe Kane of Joe Kane Productions. You know Joe, today we have Blu‑ray, and I am really jazzed about Blu‑ray, because it is the one format that can really maximize our high‑definition television set's potential, with 24‑frame, 24p, 1080p performance.
We talk about Blu‑ray, but we also have other methods of bringing high‑definition content into the home: digital cable, satellite.
But, HDTV is also available as a terrestrial broadcast format, and here in the States, we are actually transitioning from analog to digital television and digital HDTV.
I was on the Home Theater Cruise with you earlier, Joe, and I saw some pictures that you had recorded from broadcast HDTV, and I have to tell you, they were stunning. Can you talk about broadcast HDTV, and the opportunities that are available to us with this spectacular medium?
Joe: First of all, there is a huge potential in broadcast. We've already talked about the fact that we are taking a high‑definition signal, and we are putting it in the space of an analog standard definition channel, and we're doing this in digital.
The potential of that broadcast, and what can be delivered to you is really significant. I got my start in working with broadcasters on high‑definition back in 1998. The official transition date to digital was actually November 1, 1998, and I was there when ABC started their 720p broadcast, their progressive broadcast of high‑definition content...
Craig: Yes.
Joe: ...and we've been working with both producers, and networks in helping them understand just how good high‑definition is, and the responsibility they need to take in creating programs. So, the content that I showed you has come from some well-educated producers, who know precisely what they are doing in creating that content, and delivering it to the networks. The networks are taking a great deal of pride in broadcasting that high‑definition at the finest level that the system allows. So, what you saw on a properly set up display is some of the best imaging, some of the best material consumers have ever seen, and it is possible for every consumer to get that in their home. Well every consumer, as long as they can put up an antenna, and receive the local stations.
Craig: Yes.
Joe: There is less processing that goes on in network delivery over the air than say, cable or satellite delivery, when it comes to the network stations so...
Craig: Why is that, Joe?
Joe: ...because basically the networks have to deliver the signal somehow, or the local stations have to deliver the signal to the satellite company.
Craig: Yes.
Joe: Often times, they will reprocess the signal to conform to the way they normally transmit. As an example, we talked about compressing the digital signal. There are multiple ways that you can actually compress digital signal, and unfortunately the satellite and cable providers have chosen a different method of compressing the digital signal than is used by the broadcasters. So, quite often they have to do something to transform one form of compression into another form of compression that is compatible with their system, and in the process, they may hurt the signal a little bit. Or, sometimes they hurt it a lot.
Craig: But, in defense of those guys Joe, I have seen some great pictures on Dish Network, DirecTV, my Comcast system.
Joe: And where they take the same kind of responsibility that the broadcasters take, the potential of that is equal. You should not see any difference in the quality between over the air, and what happens in cable or satellite.
Craig: But the bottom line is: don't throw your antenna away, right? Because you could potentially, be getting some great pictures over the air where you live.
Joe: Certainly not just yet in throwing the antenna away. Once again, I would like to have the consumer initially have a reference for what's good. And that is going to help the cable and satellite providers when they know that the consumer is able to understand what the broadcaster can do directly. If it's going to push them to take the same kind of responsibility I expect of the broadcasters in providing the content.
Craig: Joe, thanks so very much for the insights you have provided today, they have been extensive and, you know what? We have only really touched the surface, and I hope that you will come back, and talk about environment and other things that help our listeners to bring the very best pictures and audio into their home environments. So, can I get your promise to come back?
Joe: I certainly would love to do that, and thank you for the opportunity.
Craig: And thank you, Joe Kane. We definitely appreciate it.
You know, I was really delighted we could have Joe on Dolbycast, and we definitely want to have him back very, very soon to talk about environments, and how we maximize this communication medium that we call HDTV.
Thanks for listening, and a reminder: send your messages to us at 888‑6DOLBYC, that is 888‑6DOLBYC, or you can contact us at dolbycast@dolby.com. This is Craig Eggers, this is Dolbycast. Stay tuned. We will see you shortly.
